Small Town Veteran: A "Cinco de Mayo gift" from Rurik (Updated & bumped)

Please support Soldiers' Angels and Project Valour-IT

« Mad Mahmoud's Declaration of War
Main
"U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols" -- Two sides to the story? (Updated with Papa Ray's thoughts, bumped) »

2006.05.10

A "Cinco de Mayo gift" from Rurik (Updated & bumped)

Professional author George "Rurik" Mellinger, a fellow Viet Nam vet (a Combat Engineer, which is not irrelevant here) who stopped just short of a PhD in Russian and Mideastern History after the war, has been kind enough to send me a "Cinco de Mayo gift" in the form of a two-part essay on the illegal ~~immigration~~ aliens situation. Please read What To Do - Part I - The Wall and What To Do - Part II - Behind the Wall. I'll update this post with some thoughts of my own on his essay in a little bit, but for now I'll quote a piece of an email he sent while I was preparing his essay for posting:

The more I've thought about this immigration issue, and from what I've seen in the past few weeks, I've become convinced that this is the challenge, the one danger which in a worst case scenario would destroy us. Even more dangerous than the Middle East. If we lost there, we would still manage some sort f a survival. Even at nuclear terrorist worst, we'd lose a city or two - but that's still a lot less than a third to a half of the country and fragmentation of the rest. I'm not much of a chess player, but I know enough to understand that if you lose your queen your game is in deep shit, but if your king is checkmated its over. That is one reason I am convinced that some of our foreign enemies are involved in supporting the protests.

George, I hope it doesn't come down to that sort of choice but if I does I guess I have to agree with you. The jihadis may be more dangerous in the short term but in the long run the Aztlanists may be our greatest danger. I guess we'd better remember soon how to fight a two-front war.

I'll add some thoughts of my own on George's essays to this post in a little while.

***

Promoted from the comments:

Thanks Bill,

Like you, I hope it does not come to the worst in either theater. But like you, and everyone else who has ever done active duty in a serious time, I believe firmly in the motto "Pray and hope for the best, plan and prepare for the worst".

Rurik

***

George, some thoughts on your essay after having time to reread it and digest it for a while. Assume I'm with you all the way on anything I don't mention.

I couldn't agree with you more about sealing the border by military means, but I know that means I've just joined you in a small minority. I see no hope at all of getting Congress to approve the use of land mines, claymores and the like. Maybe there's hope for getting a physical barrier like you propose, and maybe even Bouncing Betties that release persistent dye or nausea-inducing chemicals, but I think our hope for any lethal automated device of any sort is in vain. The irony here is that I think your approach would actually save lives in the long run. What would happen to the number of illegals dying of thirst in our southwestern desserts, or of heat strokes locked in the back of abandoned semis, with the barrier you propose in place? I submit that a few bodies left to rot on the wire as proof that we mean business would reduce that number to near zero.

I'd modify your tax on wire transfers to only impose the tax you propose on people who can't provide proof of their right to be in this country, by showing that national ID card you propose.

Well, that didn't take long, did it? Now if Congress just had the good sense and balls to do what needs done.

***

Don't miss Greyhawk's latest Open Post, Allahpundit's Weekend Link Dump, Kit's Friday Drop Zone, or OTB's Beltway Traffic Jam.

***

Promoted from the comments:

Bill,

Unfortunately, I totally agree that "...no hope at all of getting Congress to approve the use of land mines, claymores and the like. .....our hope for any lethal automated device of any sort is in vain."

And also, I strongly agree with your point that it would save lives in the long run (which is why I want it)... not only from illegals dying in the desert and locked trailers, but also illegals and American citizens butchered in a spasm of the ethnic cleansing contest which will inevitably result if we continue on our current course.

In fact, I am less optimistic than you about which of my recommendations politically can be implemented, which is why my previous posts were so pessimistic.

But then, my doctor tells me I MUST go on a no salt, no fat, no cholesterol, no anything good diet for my hypertension. And he also issues dire warnings about the consequences.

His recommendations have about as much chance of implementation. So I accept that I will probably have my heart attack fairly early. My individual choice; lifestyle over longevity, since I've got no dependants.

As a society, America should be confronted with the facts and choices. Since America has an entire globe of dependants, I must urge my country to make the other choice. But I remain cynical.

Rurik

Well Rurik I don't know you but you sound just ornery enough to outlive your doctor.

I like your ideas, not just because they echo my thoughts and feelings but because they are sound positive steps that we could take. But like Bill I have to tell you that the congressvarmits we have now (and President) just ain't gonna do it, or anything even remotely near it. We will be lucky if we get the promised Border Patrol increase in the next five years.

Now, why is that?

Is this not a Republic? Do we not appoint and send out our representives to represent our wishes, dreams and hopes. To assure us of a Nation that is protected from those that would do us harm?

Is it our fault? What the hell has gone wrong here? Why are our representives not listening to us?

I really think its because, even with the apparent furor of the last few months, our representives know (in their politically muddled minds) that it will all soon settle back down and the American voters will go back to their little bubbles and resume their little lives and leave them alone to continue politicing as they please. I really believe that.

I really believe that the group think in DC is that the American public has an attention span of a five year old.

They may be right.

I left a comment to an excellent post back last year about the opinion polls.

Nothing that has happened lately has changed my opinion. They are still sure if they screw around long enough, with the proper use of smoke and mirrors we will all return to our little bubbles (mine is well armed, stocked and prepared).

Somehow, I don't think it will happen this time.

I hope not, for my Sweet Sarah's sake. [BF note: Sarah is Papa Ray's granddaughter.]

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

********************** 2006.05.09 **********************

Promoted from the comments:

Well, as one would expect, I did not find myself disagreeing with Rurik too much. On a couple of points I do disagree. Not in principle, but in practical implementation.

1st point of disagreement is the issue of deportation. Even if it is the right thing to do, there is no real way to implement it in practice. There is a number of reasons, why. 1st of all, if you are advocating this, then you should be prepared to follow through and advocate massive rounding up of whole families, old and young, men, women and children. Because this would be the only way to do it. And you cannot spend 20 years deporting all illegals, because you'll find yourself deporting people that grew up here, and this is the only country they know. You might also have to detain those people in some sort of camps, while they are being processed. There is a valid argument to be made in favor of the deportation, but while you are making that argument, you should also remember what you thought of Janet Reno when you saw this picture: http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2001/breaking-news-photography/works/eliansma.gif. Little Elian was technically an illegal alien. I thought that there was no other way of getting out of Cuba, until I found myself working with a bunch of Cubans at company called di/dt, now Power One. They told me that now there is a process to emigrate, similar to the one that existed in the old Soviet Union. So, you could make an argument that his mother should have applied for a permission to leave Cuba and come to the US to be re-united with her relatives.

Of course, the difference between the Cubans and the Mexicans is that the Cubans actually come here with the intent to become Americans. So, we are back to the problem of assimilation.

But back to the issue of deportation. Even if you prepared to make an argument for it, knowing that there will be many more pictures like the one linked above, there is no way it will ever be implemented in practice. Even Tom Tancredo always rushes to point out that "nobody talks about deportation". Even if the only reason it will never be implemented is the fact that the politicians of both parties do not have stomach for it, this a reason enough not to waist time dreaming about it. As an engineer, I don't spend time on designs that are impossible to implement, once I establish that the feasibility is low. Let us concentrate on solutions that are practical.

The other thing that will never get implemented is the mine fields along the border. Again, it might the ideal solution, but it will never be done. I think I also mentioned the mines on the border in my earlier comment [Click here -- BF] on the subject, but unfortunately it is not going to be done. On the other hand, "mines" with paint or teargas are feasible. In fact, everything else Rurik suggested is doable. The only hard part of the rest is abolition of dual citizenships. Not because it is not practical, but because the other countries often consider a person their citizen whether that person likes it or not. I have a friend who is married to a Russian girl from Volgograd. Unlike me, she is a real Russian. She is a naturalized American Citizen, and very patriotic at that. But her parents still live there, and she still has her Russian passport. So whenever they go for a visit, the Russian authorities demand of her that she use her Russian passport, not American. I don't know what would happen if she would just let that Russian passport expire. I suspect she does not know either. They never tried to lie and say that she does not have a Russian passport when they go there. But my point is, she is treated by the Russian authorities as a Russian Citizen, whether she likes it or not.

Anyway, this is my 2 cents on the issue.

Eric.

Eric, I agree with you that mass deportations are out of the question. On the other hand I think pretty much the same thing could be accomplished by implementing steps 2 - 5 of the 6-step plan I posted here. If we make being in this country illegally unpleasant enough the illegals will deport themselves.

********************** 2006.05.11 **********************

Promoted from the comments:

First, I differ with Eric on the issue of Elian Gonzalez. Since 1960 we have accepted refugees escaping communism as a category different from other immigrants. They have always been, and continue to be my favorite immigrants (Eric himself a prime example of why I so value them.) It is only because Slick Willie and his leading administration figures had such a long and blatant sympathy for Marxists that Elian was handed back - a "mini-Operation Keelhaul". Certainly there is a significant difference between Castro and the Mexican government, obvious even to the most strident anti-Mexicans. If the pro-migras wish to debate this last point, I will be interested to hear it.

As stated in earlier rejoinders, I understand that certain of my measures are not politically acceptable, but that does not mean I accept it. Once we accept that closing the border is not a desirable but essential, we must take whatever measures are necessary. While chess and board game theory may be partially applicable here, it cannot be taken too far. In a board game, you accept defeat if outmaneuvered. Maybe so also in overseas contests, where the stakes are not national survival. Here we must do WHATEVER is necessary, or reconcile ourselves to the dismemberment of our country with all the wider ramifications I have already stated. And if that means lethal devices, then that is unfortunate. But better to take such a measure earlier rather than later, it will mean fewer lives lost in total.

As for deportation, again, I think we must deport as many as we possibly can. If we miss a few, we will at least make them keep their heads down, and force them to try to assimilate for the sake of their own cover. Shrugging off deportation as "undoable" means accepting a permanent unassimilated alien element amongst us, and encourages others to try to come and join them.

And it is not just the fact that the Mexicans are coming illegally, but even more the problem that they do not want to assimilate. If the illegals were swarming the ESL classes, trying to learn American tastes and habits, and trying to assimilate in, far, far fewer Americans would mind their presence here. In fact, Far fewer would even notice it. As evidence let me offer the resentment by some of non-assimilated Cuban-Americans ((let me note I definitely do not share this resentment), or of Puerto Ricans, though all of them are Americans by birth. "It's the culture Stupid." Middle class Anglos, and also Blacks and other assimilated groups do not want to see their culture supplanted by Latinism. True, certain other groups have not assimilated completely, but such enclaves as Brighton Beach remain localized, and thus are nothing more than tourist attractions for the rest of us. If we were to find suddenly that Russians had swollen to 15% of our population, and everywhere were refusing to learn English, and displacing taco stands for piroshki palaces, I'd start objecting to them too.

It is the culture. And that is all the more important when we are reminded that the migras supposedly are fleeing here to escape a culture that has allegedly failed. And yet they stubbornly bring that failed culture with them, and insist that we accommodate that failure.

-- Rurik

Posted by Bill Faith on May 10, 2006 at 01:03 AM in Eric B, Mexican-American War 2, Rurik | Permalink

TrackBack

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference A "Cinco de Mayo gift" from Rurik (Updated & bumped):

» Wild shootout in Nuevo Laredo from Stormwarning's Counterterrorism
Despite all of the pro and anti immigration rallies of the past few weeks, one subject has not dropped off the radar screen, at least not here. Thankfully, Mayor Hardberger of San Antonio has not bent to local pressure to [Read More]

Tracked on May 7, 2006 8:31:59 PM

Comments

Note: I hate to have to do it but I'm turning on comment and trackback moderation. If you post a legitimate trackback or comment I'll do my best not to be too slow about approving it. If the only reason you're here is to advertise your porn, music, or penis enhancement site you can kiss my sweet ass.

Thanks Bill, Like you, I hope it does not come to the worst in either theater. But like you, and everyone else who has ever done active duty in a serious time, i believe firmly in the motto "Pray and hope for the best, plan and prepare for the worst".

Posted by: Rurik | May 4, 2006 11:40:41 PM

Bill, Unfortunately, I totally agree that "...no hope at all of getting Congress to approve the use of land mines, claymores and the like. .....our hope for any lethal automated device of any sort is in vain." And also, I strongly agree with your point that it would save lives in the long run (which is why I want it)...not only from illegals dying in the desert and locked trailers, but also illegals and American citizens butchered in a spasm of the ethnic cleansing contest which will inevitably result if we continue on our current course. In fact, I am less optimistic that you about which of my recommendations politically can be implemented, which is why my previous posts wree so pessimistic. but then, my doctor tells me I MUST go on a no salt, no fat, no cholesterol, no anything good diet for my hypertension. And he also issues dire warnings about the consequences. His recommendations have about as much chance of implementation. So I accept that I will probably have my heart attack fairly early. My individual choice; lifestyle over longevity, since I've got no dependants. As a society, America should be confronted with the facts and choices. Since America has an entire globe of dependants, I must urge my country to make the other choice. But I remain cynical.

Posted by: Rurik | May 5, 2006 9:18:50 AM

Well Rurik I don't know you but you sound just ornery enough to outlive your doctor. I like your ideas, not just because they echo my thoughts and feelings but because they are sound positive steps that we could take. But like Bill I have to tell you that the congressvarmits we have now (and President) just ain't gonna do it, or anything even remotely near it. We will be lucky if we get the promised Border Patrol increase in the next five years. Now, why is that? Is this not a Republic? Do we not appoint and send out our representives to represent our wishes, dreams and hopes. To assure us of a Nation that is protected from those that would do us harm? Is it our fault? What the hell has gone wrong here? Why are our representives not listening to us? I really think its because, even with the apparent furor of the last few months, our representives know (in their politically muddled minds) that it will all soon settle back down and the American voters will go back to their little bubbles and resume their little lives and leave them alone to continue politicing as they please. I really believe that. I really believe that the group think in DC is that the American public has an attention span of a five year old. They may be right. I left a comment to an excellent post back last year about the opinion polls. Nothing that has happened lately has changed my opinion. They are still sure if they screw around long enough, with the proper use of smoke and mirrors we will all return to our little bubbles.(mine is well armed, stocked and prepared) Somehow, I don't think it will happen this time. I hope not, for my Sweet Sarahs sake. Papa Ray West Texas USA

Posted by: Papa Ray | May 5, 2006 4:28:59 PM

Well, as one would expect, I did not find myself disagreeing with Rurik too much. On a couple of points I do disagree. Not in principle, but in practical implementation. 1st point of disagreement is the issue of deportation. Even if it is the right thing to do, there is no real way to implement it in practice. There is a number of reasons, why. 1st of all, if you are advocating this, then you should be prepared to follow through and advocate massive rounding up of whole families, old and young, men, women and children. Because this would be the only way to do it. And you cannot spend 20 years deporting all illegals, because you'll find yourself deporting people that grew up here, and this is the only country they know. You might also have to detain those people in some sort of camps, while they are being processed. There is a valid argument to be made in favor of the deportation, but while you are making that argument, you should also remember what you thought of Janet Reno when you saw this picture: http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2001/breaking-news-photography/works/eliansma.gif Little Elian was technically an illegal alien. I thought that there was no other way of getting out of Cuba, until I found myself working with a bunch of Cubans at company called di/dt, now Power One. They told me that now there is a process to emigrate, similar to the one that existed in the old Soviet Union. So, you could make an argument that his mother should have applied for a permission to leave Cuba and come to the US to be re-united with her relatives. Of course, the difference between the Cubans and the Mexicans is that the Cubans actually come here with the intent to become Americans. So, we are back to the problem of assimilation. But back to the issue of deportation. Even if you prepared to make an argument for it, knowing that there will be many more pictures like the one linked above, there is no way it will ever be implemented in practice. Even Tom Tancredo always rushes to point out that "nobody talks about deportation". Even if the only reason it will never be implemented is the fact that the politicians of both parties do not have stomach for it, this a reason enough not to waist time dreaming about it. As an engineer, I don't spend time on designs that are impossible to implement, once I establish that the feasibility is low. Let us concentrate on solutions that are practical. The other thing that will never get implemented is the mine fields along the border. Again, it might the ideal solution, but it will never be done. I think I also mentioned the mines on the border in my earlier comment on the subject, but unfortunately it is not going to be done. On the other hand, "mines" with paint or teargas are feasible. In fact, everything else Rurik suggested is doable. The only hard part of the rest is abolition of dual citizenships. Not because it is not practical, but because the other countries often consider a person their citizen whether that person likes it or not. I have a friend who is married to a Russian girl from Volgograd. Unlike me, she is a real Russian. She is a naturalized American Citizen, and very patriotic at that. But her parents still live there, and she still has her Russian passport. So whenever they go for a visit, the Russian authorities demand of her that she use her Russian passport, not American. I don't know what would happen if she would just let that Russian passport expire. I suspect she does not know either. They never tried to lie and say that she does not have a Russian passport when they go there. But my point is, she is treated by the Russian authorities as a Russian Citizen, whether she likes it or not. Anyway, this is my 2 cents on the issue. Eric.

Posted by: Eric | May 9, 2006 2:05:14 AM

First, I differ with Eric on the issue of Elian Gonzalez. Since 1960 we have accepted refugees escaping communism as a category different from other immigrants. They have always been, and continue to be my favorite immigrants (Eric himself a prime example of why I so value them.) It is only because Slick Willie and his leading administration figures had such a long and blatant sympathy for Marxists that Elian was handed back - a "mini-Operation Keelhaul". Certainly there is a significant difference between Castro and the Mexican government, obvious even to the most strident anti-Mexicans. If the pro-migras wish to debate this last point, I will be interested to hear it. As stated in earlier rejoinders, I understand that certain of my measures are not politically acceptable, but that does not mean I accept it. Once we accpet that closing the border is not a desirable but essential, we must take wahtever measures are necessary. While chess and board game theory may be partially applicable here, it cannot be taken too far. In a board game, you accpet defeat if outmaneuvered. Maybe so also in overseas contests, where the stakes are not national survival. Here we msut do WHATEVER is necessary, or reconcile ourselves to the dismemberment fo our country with all the wider ramifications I have already stated. And if that means lethal devices, then that is unfortunate. But better to take such a measure earlier rather than later, it will mean fewer lives lost in total. As for deportation, again, I think we must deport as many as we possibly can. If we miss a few, we will at least make them keep their heads down, and force them to try to assimilate for the sake of thier own cover. Shrugging off deportation as "undoable" means accpeting a permanent unassimilated alien element amongst us, an dencourages others to try to come and join them. And it is not just the fact that the Mexicans are coming illegally, but even more the problem that they do not want to assimilate. If the illegals were swarming the ESL classes, trying to learn American tastes and habits, and trying to assimilate in, far, far fewer Americans would mind their presence here. In fact, Far fewere would even notice it. As evidence let me offer the resentment by some of non-assimilated Cuban-Americans ((let me note I definitely do not share this resnetment), or of Puerto Ricans, though all of them are Americans by birth. "It's the culture Stupid." Middle class Anglos, and also Blacks and other assimilated groups do not want to see their culture supplanted by Latinismo. True, certain other groups have not assimilated competely, but such enclaves as Brighton Beach remain localized, and thus are notohgin more than tourist attractions for the rest of us. If we were to find suddenly that Russians had swolen to 15% of our poulation, and everywhere were refusing to learn English, and displacing taco stands for piroshki palaces, I'd start objectig to them too. It is the culture. And that is all the more important when we are reminded that the migras supposedly are fleeing here to escape a culture that has allegedly failed. And yet they stubbornly bring that failed culture with them, and insist that we accomodate that failure.

Posted by: Rurik | May 10, 2006 10:16:45 PM

Post a comment

Recent Posts

Recent Comments

Categories

Archives